Attendees
Alok Jain – Sr. Director – Patient Relationship Management at Affordable Care
Chintan Doshi – Head of Email & CRM, at Mavlers
Transcript
[00:00:00] Alok: Have you ever had a conversation about, about a product? Like, you know, and then all of a sudden you see ads on your feeds, and then you’re like, oh my God,
[00:00:08] Alok: you know,
[00:00:08] Alok: Alexa is listening. Right? Or my cell phone is, is listening. Right? I mean, customer today expects transfer, right? I mean, that’s a nutshell for, like Apple for instance, made a privacy selling point.
[00:00:20] Alok: They did like a huge campaign about like, we don’t sell your information. You know, where they ask you like whether you are one allowed. App to track you or not, right? It gave users control, which, which boost trust. Right? I mean, personalization is, is powerful, but there’s a fine line between helpful and creepy.
[00:00:46] Chintan: Today we are thrilled to welcome, Alok Jain, a leader in CRM loyalty digital marketing analytics. currently heading marketing analytics CRM. At affordable dentures and implants, with over a [00:01:00] decade of experience spanning roles that driven brands, vision Works, west Marine and Payless. Arlo has deep background in crafting data driven strategies that elevate customer experience and fuel loyalty.
[00:01:13] Chintan: as a board advisor for top CRM marketing conferences and a mentor to future leader, leader in analytics, his expertise bridges hands on strategy. A unique focus on, we can’t wait for him to share practical tapes to boost, boost CRM performances and design loyalty programs that totally connect.
[00:01:32] Chintan: Welcome Alok.
[00:01:33] Alok: Yeah, no, good to be here. Chintan and thanks for, for inviting me to be on your, on your podcast and happy to be here. And I’d love to share some insights and, a lot of failures and, and the successes we have had over the years. Love to share those perspectives and hopefully. You know, emerging leaders and, practitioners in this space, um, and, and fuel their program.
[00:01:58] Alok: So, um, [00:02:00] happy to be here.
[00:02:01] Chintan: Great. I, I’m sure it’ll be helping all the marketers, around the globe, leveraging your experience and your insights of, uh. Gaining the experience into multiple domains in terms of clients and, and industries, and also leveraging it and managing the CRM part or platforms for those, particular organizations.
[00:02:22] Chintan: So first of all, to start with the, the major point I would like to start with or to discuss is, building and optimizing the CRM loyalty programs because that is. Like must have a need, which all the brand should follow with your extensive experience across brands like West Wine and Driven Brands, right?
[00:02:39] Chintan: you would’ve, you’ve done definitely worked on multiple loyalty programs that engage, with customers. How can companies create a data driven loyalty program that not only engages, but retain customers effectively?
[00:02:53] Alok: Yeah. So, you know, um, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a load Programs are very near and dear to my heart because I know they [00:03:00] really work.
[00:03:00] Alok: If you’ve done right, you know, back in the day, if you think about load programs, they were all about like punch cards. You know, buy 10 half, you get one free buy, five car washes get six free. Um, simple but not exactly exciting, you know? fast forward to. If you think about loyalty program data is, is fueling all the loyalty programs or the majority of the successful loyalty programs.
[00:03:23] Alok: You know, take Starbucks for example. Um, they don’t just hand out stars for your purchases. They analyze what you buy when you buy and in what locations you visit. So this lets them send. Hyper personalized offers like a discounted frappe, you know, offer right when the temperature drops down or, or goes up in your, in your ity, right?
[00:03:43] Alok: Um, that’s not just a loyalty program. It’s a loyalty Programs have changed from, you know, those punch cards to like a, a behavioral science execution in, in action. Um, going back to my personal experiences, um, a retailer I helped with. [00:04:00] Um, refining their loyalty program. We noticed that there were a lot of high value shoppers that had specific shopping patterns.
[00:04:07] Alok: Um, they might just stock up before big seasonal events, right? So we introduced tailored promotions around their buying cycles. The result, increase engagement and higher spend per visit. from my, one of my other clients, we segmented the loyalty program itself. We had, um, you know, for, for this, this, this was for like a, a retail, a boarding retailer, um, I can’t get my word right, a boarding retailer where they had like people who made their living on water and people who.
[00:04:39] Alok: Just, you know, a hobby of, of, you know, being in a, um, riding in a boat, you know, and the needs were totally different. The people who were, we call them pro boarders right? Or pro customers. Um, they, they, they had different needs. They were actually, I. Buy stuff like three weeks ahead of, you know, when a seasonal border [00:05:00] or a day-to-day border would buy stuff.
[00:05:02] Alok: So we segmented our loyalty program for, for our pro customers, totally differently. Pro customers didn’t care for gimmicks, like discounts and points. They wanted to make sure they had the best quality product available. At their location, location of their choosing all the time. So, and then they had the average discount available on their products that they know what they would be buying.
[00:05:28] Alok: So we leveraged data and insights to then manage our supply chain accordingly for these pro customers. And then, you know, came up with the learn the program that was. Specifically for them. So, um, it goes back to like, you know, leveraging data and insights to develop your, your program. You know, the key is to the, the, I think the, the, in the nutshell that I will say that the key is to make customers feel like that the program is designed just for that, right?
[00:05:59] Alok: If they [00:06:00] think, wow, this brand really gets me, you have one. So that, that’s, that’s the key of, you know, having a successful world program.
[00:06:07] Chintan: Definitely, definitely. Those, those insights are really amazing. I, I would also love to add up, a, a follow up question on that. Uh. When you’re evaluating loyalty programs for, for different brands where you’re worked with, right.
[00:06:20] Chintan: Which metrics do you prioritize to measure the success and, and. Any, any specific reason behind that?
[00:06:26] Alok: Um, I would say like, I mean, not all metrics are created equal, right? I mean, brands get obsessed with metric A or metric D or metric C, right? Um, I think it, it just all depends on, you know, what is the objective of your loyalty program, right?
[00:06:45] Alok: I have like, for example, some a, a brand like, you know, let’s just say Walmart as an example, right? They have a Walmart plus, you know, a loyalty program for them. The, the, the, like, they wanna look at loyalty program, not [00:07:00] as if it’s driving, you know. Um, an incremental visit or not, because people buy groceries at a very, you know, frequent, you know, for them the metric is whether it’s winning the share of wallet in the categories that people had not shopped before, or is it driving more convenience?
[00:07:19] Alok: So is it increasing their satisfaction level? With the brand. Right? So I think it just, it hold, but for, for a brand that is not high frequency, you know, it could be a driver to drive, you know, incremental purchase. It could be a driver to drive incremental basket. Right. Um, for me, I think if you ask me for like a, a brand that has, you know, three to four or four to five purchases in a year.
[00:07:48] Alok: Um, the metric that I, I obsess with in that scenario is, is it driving incremental chips from my existing shoppers? And then the [00:08:00] secondary metric I look at, is it helping me retaining my customers? So is it, is it making, is it helping me keeping my file more active? Are the metrics of subset. Like, I think, um, added other value is probably a byproduct of that.
[00:08:18] Alok: You know, that kind of comes along. But as long as I’m able to engage customers in a way, you know, um, but, but then again, it goes back to other things we talked about, right? Like, if I wanna leverage my loyalty program to get people into new categories where they have not purchased before, right? I think it just all depends on.
[00:08:36] Alok: What the objective is, but I, I really don’t like to have, you know, metrics that are not revenue driven as a function of the loyalty program. You know, um, like how many people are logging onto the website or how many people have created the account. You know, those I think are all maybe tertiary metrics that you wanna look at that then, [00:09:00] you know, fuels up your primary metric, which is, is it driving more revenue?
[00:09:06] Chintan: Definitely. So yeah, it’s, it’s good advice that we should not always run behind a metric, which everyone thinks is, is lucrative for the program, but something which should be associated with revenue. Right. As you mentioned that. Your metrics will always be towards the revenue. It might not be just revenue as a metric, but which helps you to derive the, okay, what is the revenue you are at least going to bring in at the end of, the overall program?
[00:09:29] Chintan: Because everyone is running behind revenue, right? We want to make sure that the law program gets the best out of, the customers, right? And then it’s not always about just being. Helping the business, but also helping the, the customers, right. Who are receiving those messaging and communication. So if you are able to add some value to our subscribers and customers, that is definitely going to be a, a different game.
[00:09:53] Chintan: Yeah. Which you should think of.
[00:09:54] Alok: Yeah. I think, as I said, like at the end of the day, it all depends on the objective of your program is [00:10:00] as long as you are clear the objective. I think the metrics. It’s easy to define metrics. I think what happens is a lot of organizations that I have helped with or have been exposed to, they just don’t know what the loyalty program is for.
[00:10:13] Alok: They just have program for the sake of it. But if you’re very clear that this is what Igon my loyalty program to do for me, then the metrics part becomes easy. But if you are confused about that, then, then it could be all over the place.
[00:10:27] Chintan: Definitely you, I know you’re given multiple examples on the loyalty program, but, throughout your journey and career, you, you would’ve seen various loyalty programs which were al already built, or which you would’ve built.
[00:10:40] Chintan: Right. Can you share an example? Of a change that you have implemented in any loyalty program in different organizations. You have been part of, web based on data driven testing and customer feedback, you were able to achieve the results which were desired for that loyalty program. Uh.
[00:10:58] Alok: Yeah, I mean I think we [00:11:00] had actually started to do that at several places where if you think about, like AI is talked about now, right?
[00:11:08] Alok: Um, we had actually started to leverage ai, you know, back in, you know, three, four years ago when it was really a, a major thing, right? Um. Like, which it has become with the, the advantage of in last year or two, we had been using AI for personalization purpose in our loyalty programs. Even, even beyond that, right?
[00:11:34] Alok: Some of the things that I implemented in the loyalty programs I have been a part of is being the context and understanding the customer’s real need. And leveraging ai. So I think being the contacts and, and, and, you know, coming up with the offers or contacts or, you know, products that we think customer are really going to need by anticipating their need, [00:12:00] by leveraging AI in a way where it has become possible versus a lot of, you know, um.
[00:12:06] Alok: A lot of, like in the past, if you look at like a lot of product recommendations were built on, if you bought A, then you were probably gonna buy B, right? But if the customers already bought B like two months ago, right. But if customer was now buying, you know, additional a, right. In this example. Right. so I think leveraging AI because it can then it has the horsepower.
[00:12:28] Alok: To mine unstructured data, and it has meant, it has horsepower to look at the context of the customer and then can learn from this wide variety of data, whether it’s coming from the website, whether it’s coming from the in-store purchases, whether it’s coming from offline purchases, but then also it can mine the, the trend in the market.
[00:12:50] Alok: It can look at,
[00:12:51] Alok: you know,
[00:12:51] Alok: um. The weather trend, so many things that you can look at. So much unstructured data. So I would say like, you know, brands should [00:13:00] really embrace and really look at leveraging AI in a way where it has become possible for us to be more personalized, be more in the content. Every time we have launched this, we have seen double digits, like high double digit gains in our engagement, in our retention rates, just because.
[00:13:23] Alok: You know, we were able to make customer feel like we really are listening to them and we really care about their needs. Um, so, and, and then, and then they reward us by shopping at us at a higher frequency or with a higher, higher ticket, you know, so, so I would say like for, for, for my past experience and for the people who are, you know, for the marketers who are thinking about evolving their program.
[00:13:51] Alok: I would say my suggestion would be to embrace, embrace AI in a way where you can really be personalized, in a way that [00:14:00] you’ve never been before.
[00:14:01] Chintan: Definitely. Yeah. So we, we all are talking about AI because AI is a buzz word now, but looks like you have been leveraging it. Leveraging it, quite a long time.
[00:14:10] Chintan: Right? So you’ve been, you’ve been using it into your, uh. Day-to-day routine in managing your loyalty programs and, and that that already, we are able to see that that is giving you results, right? As you mentioned, that, you’re able to see a double digit growth, right, in terms of the, the metrics, right?
[00:14:25] Chintan: Data engagement metrics or anything. So, great, great to hear that. And now as we are talking about ai, would also love to, get more thoughts from your end on. As you are a part of an, a leader of CRM and ANA and CR M and analytics, you know, the challenges and approaches AI presence, right? Because Yeah, for quite a long time, for companies starting out, right?
[00:14:48] Chintan: What are the ES essentials they need to understand about data ethics or to ensure customer trust and compliance while leveraging ai?
[00:14:57] Alok: Yeah, no, I. Definitely that the [00:15:00] data privacy is, is critical to making sure right, that you, the data you’re collecting is, is ethical, right? You know, um, as long as in my experience, as long as you set the right expectations with the customer that we’re going to use this data to do X, Y, Z, which needs to make sense for that customer, you know, you really would have very.
[00:15:25] Alok: Less, you know, pushback from the customer, right? Because they know that, you know, you are gonna, you’re gonna use this, use the data to make their experience better. You know, um, you’re gonna use this data to, to make sure that, that their recommendations are more relevant and so forth, right? So, I mean, I would say like, data privacy is obviously huge, right?
[00:15:50] Alok: We gotta, we gotta make sure that, you know, all the data is collected ethically. But as long as you’re setting the right expectations with the consumer or the customer on why or [00:16:00] how the data is used, you tend to get very less, very less pushback. But at the same time, you’ve gotta have a process in place where a customer, if customer has, you know, indicated that they’re not comfortable with that, then you know, you gotta really.
[00:16:17] Alok: Not use that, use that data, right? Like, I mean, personalized is, is powerful, but there’s a fine line between helpful and creepy, you know? Like, if you think about, like, have you, have you ever had a conversation about, about a product? Like, you know, and then all of a sudden you see ads on your, on your feeds, and then you’re like, oh my God,
[00:16:36] Alok: you know,
[00:16:37] Alok: Alexa is listening to me.
[00:16:39] Alok: Right? Or my cell phone is, is listening to me. Right. I mean, customer today expects transparency, right? I mean, that’s a nutshell. Like Apple for instance, made privacy a selling point. They did like a huge campaign about like, we don’t sell your information. You know, we ask. Where they ask you like whether you are wanna allow app to track your, track, you or not, [00:17:00] right?
[00:17:00] Alok: It gave users control, which, which boosts trust. Right. A, a client I worked with in the membership space, um, needed to restart their data sharing between, between two businesses. And we had to ensure that customers knew how their information was being used. So transparency and value exchange were key.
[00:17:18] Alok: Customers were were key, right? And customers were willing to share their information and data. If they saw how it benefited them through the killer offers and, and better services, you know, in all of this, the golden rule, don’t just take data on it and make them feel like they didn’t make a mistake by giving you access to their data.
[00:17:40] Chintan: Definitely. So, yeah, I believe transparency is the key, as you mentioned, and, and, and respect the data, right? If, if they are giving that consent by sharing the data, we should respect it and, and not just breach their privacy. So definitely a good insight. the next major concern or the point which we should, [00:18:00] definitely leverage your experience around is, omnichannel customer experience, right?
[00:18:04] Chintan: Because implementing a CRM implementing a loyalty program definitely sounds like easier thing to manage, but making sure that you have a omnichannel experience across different. channels that you’re managing, omni channel customer experience, right across multiple messaging, which we are managing, how, how to manage it.
[00:18:24] Chintan: So we’d love to get your thoughts on, um, how, how do you approach creating a. Seamless omnichannel experience, that keeps customer engaged, whether they interact online or instore, because I believe you would’ve definitely worked, or would’ve managed, in of CRM on, on multiple channels, be it invest or previously.
[00:18:46] Chintan: at Vision Works.
[00:18:47] Alok: Yeah, for sure. Um, you know, I think about this a lot, you know, um, did you ever have that frustrating experience where you look at a product online and this is the store and the staff has no clue about your [00:19:00] online interaction, you know, happens a lot. You know, it’s very common. That’s the opposite of omnichannel.
[00:19:05] Alok: Like brands claim that we are omnichannel. But I have had experiences where, you know, I buy something online, which is basically dropship product, and then if I’m gonna return it to the store, they have no idea what to do with that product because they don’t even sell that product in store, I think. I think Nike does it right?
[00:19:25] Alok: Nike does it right? I mean, their app tracks your browsing history. Let’s you check stores, let you check stock in nearby stores, um, and even gives you a QR code for easy checkout when you arrive. You know, that’s seamless integration because you can actually do the purchase online, just show the QR code, grab the product, and
[00:19:43] Alok: then you’re on your,
[00:19:45] Alok: um, a client I worked with in the specialty retail sector.
[00:19:48] Alok: They aim to unify the in-store novel experience. You know, they link the customer purchase history across all channels. Um, they also took the browse history and then made that as part [00:20:00] of the customer profile that the associates at the front desk in the store had access to. and based on that, so associates could offer more relevant recommendations.
[00:20:11] Alok: They knew that customer, John Doe was looking at Product X. When they’re browsing in browsing online, they could then make, or they bought the Product X when they were on their most recent online purchase. They could easily make. A style recommendation that goes to their product X, right? We were also in some cases, feeding what based on these interactions, what customer could be looking for, and then we empowered associates to, you know, take those recommendations and be like a personal shopper for the customer.
[00:20:44] Alok: Right? So imagine like. Imagine having a friend with you that knows what you have, browsed what you have purchased, and then knows what you like, what you don’t like, and then making recommendations of that hat. And how powerful is that? You know, because a lot of friends that [00:21:00] I take with me, they have no idea and they’re like, yeah, this looks good, but they have no idea what colors I like, of course I don’t like, um, that’s why omnichannel is such powerful.
[00:21:10] Alok: If, if done right, it makes it change things. Diff it changed things completely. Makes a shopping experience completely, um, different in a better way. but, but again, it all goes back to leveraging data and empowering your associates to use them in a way that has not been used before. and which requires significant investment, right?
[00:21:34] Alok: It requires significant on the, on the systems. It requires significant on the investment, on the training. It. On the associates time in helping the customer, but it completely flips the flips, the, the game. Like, I don’t wanna shop anywhere else when I know if I’m gonna go to this brand, they’re gonna treat me and they’re gonna know all everything about me and then provide me recommendations or help me out, [00:22:00] you know, in a way that I have never experienced before.
[00:22:03] Alok: So I think that’s, that’s kind of the, the key. And, and it’s just, as I said, it’s just not about tech. It’s just not about having the. Channel, point of sale system that has all of these information. You
[00:22:13] Alok: know,
[00:22:14] Alok: it has, it’s, it’s about making the life easier for, for our customers wherever they interact, interact with.
[00:22:21] Chintan: Got it. So it’s about making sure that you do things right. Right. And, making sure that you try to also leverage the data. ’cause data driven decision making is always going to make a big impact. Now, when, when, when we are talking about omni-channel experience, right? The seamless omni channel experience for the customer, how do we measure the impact of, this omnichannel approach, right?
[00:22:43] Chintan: When on our customer engagement and satisfaction to ensure that it’s, it’s adding value, right? It’s, it’s at least giving some result to. Both the brand and the customer.
[00:22:52] Alok: I think if you, if you think about it, like, um, it’s, it all goes into like retention rate, right? Like it [00:23:00] all goes into like conversion rate.
[00:23:01] Alok: Like it could be variety of metrics, you know? And in a nutshell, is it, is it helping you? Is it helping with your NPS, right? Like that’s the first starting point. Like is it helping? Make customer feel like they, they’re satisfied with their experience in the store. People go rank about, you know, if they don’t find a product, if they have bad experience, right?
[00:23:23] Alok: But if they’ve done right, they can, they, they respond positively to the service as well. And one of the brands that I, I have helped with, with their Omnicell experience, slowly saw their NPS went up as soon as we started making their experience. Feel more personalized when they are in the store. You know, retention is another key metric, you know, based on the channel experience, you know, and then more multichannel shopper, right?
[00:23:49] Alok: Like. Gone are the days where people were buying in store and you know, or online. I think the, the world has truly changed, especially post [00:24:00] COVID, where the experiences on the channel where you start your journey on the website or the app, and then maybe you convert in store, right? So I think if brands stop looking at like the in-store and online and think of that as an omnichannel.
[00:24:16] Alok: Right Where it doesn’t matter where you start the journey, it doesn’t matter where you convert, but if, as long as the experience is seamless, you know, um, tho, tho that, that’s critical, right? So I think, I think if brands start looking at, you know, their overall retention, their overall NPS scores, you know, and then their overall, conversion.
[00:24:39] Alok: Um, that I think are the good indicators and KPIs that you are doing your omni experience, right?
[00:24:45] Chintan: Yep. So, yeah, that, that’s a good, good insight. I’m not sure if, if, that or, or the brands are aware about direct mail, but the next question I have is around direct mail. Direct mail is surprisingly, research as a part of omnichannel [00:25:00] strategies, right?
[00:25:01] Chintan: have you integrated direct mail with your digital strategies? And what’s your take? What is your opinion around direct mail?
[00:25:08] Alok: I’m actually, um, a huge fan of direct mail, and I know even though PO post offices are making difficult and difficult for marketers to keep direct mail because the postage is going up every year, but I think direct mail has a definite place in the, in the marketplace.
[00:25:25] Alok: I mean, people think direct mail is outdated, but. But lemme tell you, it works, it, it works in a way that has never been seen before in some other channel, right? We tested direct mail for, for, you know, one of the brand I help in, in the B2B stage and period up with the email campaigns there, response rate, 10 x expired, then the email alone, um, physical mail stands in the, in the digital world.
[00:25:52] Alok: It’s tangible. You know, like 20 years ago when you went to the mailbox and you had like. 40 direct mail pieces stuffed on your [00:26:00] mailbox. It was like email 20 years ago, like when you open up your mailbox in the morning. All brands that you have engaged with and are opted in, want to talk to you, right?
[00:26:09] Alok: Because you are on their daily email list. They wanna tell you about the sale of the day, they’re wanna tell you about the deal of the day, they wanna tell you about why they love you, all those sort of things, right? So as customers switching through 40, 20, 15, 10 carbon brands, you engage with emails every day.
[00:26:26] Alok: It’s, it’s really taxing on your brain and then more often, not you. Or you think you’re gonna come back to later? Um, so that was direct mail like 20 years ago. But because how the direct has evolved and it has become little of for the brands because they can’t afford it anymore. For the brands that really do it, it really stands out in the mailbox because you don’t get 40 direct mail pieces.
[00:26:51] Alok: I hope you don’t get 40 direct mail pieces. but you get very few and then it stands out. It’s tangible, but the magic is the [00:27:00] integration. It needs to be part of a strategy. You don’t wanna do a direct mail, just do for the sake of direct mail. You want to have like a, a multichannel campaign. It works really great for.
[00:27:12] Alok: You know, um, grand opening, it works really great for, winning that it works really great for customers that are not engaging via, other channels. It works really great when there’s like a, an a multi-channel strategy for. For a specific action that we want customer to take. So if direct mail done right, it could really have a really lasting impact.
[00:27:36] Alok: One of the other mistake I see a lot of retailers do is they measure the performance of direct mail at a campaign level. Why that, what I mean is they could have like a, eight to 10 camp director campaigns a year, five to six director campaigns a year. They would have a whole out group, and then they would measure the performance of direct mail based on the whole out at the campaign level.
[00:27:59] Alok: Now [00:28:00] they’re like, well, we have this much incrementality in the campaign. But if you think about it, it’s the incrementality. It’s not incrementality of the direct mail. It’s an incrementality if somebody gets five campaigns versus six campaigns, because this person who is going the hold up, they got all direct mail campaigns except this one.
[00:28:21] Alok: So you’re not really testing the incrementality of the direct mail. You are testing the incrementality of someone receiving all direct mail except one versus somebody receiving all direct mail during this specific timeframe. What I encourage brands and my clients to do is look at the direct mail at the year, double at the six month level.
[00:28:41] Alok: Like if you stop, you may not see the impact of. If you cut direct mail, you may not see the impact of it in the next campaign, but you will for sure see the impact of it as the time goes by. All these high value customers that you are thinking are gonna come no matter what. They’re getting marketed by other channels, [00:29:00] especially in direct mail because prospecting is easier in the direct mail board for the high ticket, um, retailers, they’re being prospected by other brands, right?
[00:29:11] Alok: So if you stop the direct mail and then they start. Their relationship with other brand you lost, you know, customer worth thousands of dollars just because you don’t wanna do the direct mail. So multiple things of this direct mail really works if it’s done right. It needs to be part of a strategy, not just, you know, one off.
[00:29:30] Alok: And then while measuring, you need to look at the direct mail results for longer duration, not for a campaign basis. You need to look at direct results if done and not done for like three months, six months, 12 months. Versus one off campaign. So, for marketers who are in the, in two minds about direct mail, I strongly encourage you to consider direct mail and, and test it.
[00:29:51] Alok: Start small and, and because it, it really shines given it’s tangible.
[00:29:57] Chintan: So in, in your opinion, marketers [00:30:00] should definitely leverage direct mail as a channel and then definitely not miss out.
[00:30:04] Alok: Yeah. I think if you are not doing direct mail, you are, you’re missing out, especially for a, for a brand, that can.
[00:30:12] Alok: Get the messaging across in a direct, like maybe for some brands, it, it may not make sense, right? Like for a fast food, I don’t know how much it would make sense for a fast food, but for, for a brand that really needs to be, that needs, needs to tell the story in a meaningful way, it could really help you shine in the, in retaining customers and meaning back customers.
[00:30:32] Chintan: Got it. So with your background in marketing analytics, particularly at Driven Brands, where you’ve worked in past, right? We would love to know what are some practical techniques for segmenting customers or identifying behavioral trends that companies can apply right away?
[00:30:47] Alok: That’s a good one. I think, again, it goes back to leveraging data.
[00:30:52] Alok: Um, I think segmentation, I think is both a science and an art, right? Um, I think you said few specific that [00:31:00] they can, that they can apply, right? I would say if, if there are different stages to it, right? If, if the brand is not doing any segmentation. The easiest way to segment to start into segmentation is by just breaking up your file into new customers, active customers and labs customers, right?
[00:31:20] Alok: If you just do that, then you’ve got like 30, 40% way there into segmenting your, your customers. If you are already doing that, then it very simply, you can bring in frequency as a company, right? I’m, I’m sure all of you, or a lot of people have heard r fm as a component, right? So if in the maturity curve you’re doing no segmentation and doing total batch and blast, right?
[00:31:41] Alok: Segmenting your file by RFM is a really good and meaningful way to get into segmentation if you are already there. If you’re already doing some kind of like some segmentation, then having some kind of behavioral metrics in there. Is going to really meaningful, right? a brand I [00:32:00] helped with, they had, um, they had like, it was a healthcare brand and they had a component of insurance.
[00:32:07] Alok: They had a component of family. They had a component of like age, you know, so adding those behavioral components, um, as long as you can define them. You can message them differently in a meaningful way, you can bring those behavioral components. But again, leverage data to tell you how those segments differ in a way that’s, that’s, you know, meaningful, right?
[00:32:32] Alok: Like, you don’t wanna just segment for the sake of segmenting. Um, you wanna let data tell you that these type of customers behave differently than those types of customers. And then you can let data tell you what are the different attributes of those segments. Don’t go overboard with that. Only go only.
[00:32:50] Alok: Only use attributes that you can use to message them differently. You know, if the messaging is not different between your segment A and segment B, there’s [00:33:00] not really a point. In segmenting your database. So, um, and then if you’re already there, if you’re already doing that, then leveraging AI to, you know, even do micro segments, right?
[00:33:12] Alok: And then leveraging AI to do the really dynamic personalized messaging. There are a lot of texts out there. I’m not gonna name anybody here because you know, that’ll be like. I’ve used so many of them, right? I won’t be able to name all of them. Right. And I’m maybe doing this service to others at whoever.
[00:33:28] Alok: Also, like I’m name it. So, um, so there are so many texts out there where you can also, you know, take micro segments and then the average AI to then personalize the message in a sec for, for those segments, right? So that. If you go from like typical brands on like six to eight segments, right? If you go from six to eight to 600 original segments, then you have like, a personal assistant in a way of AI that can help you.
[00:33:57] Alok: Personalize the messages for you. And then [00:34:00] they can also help you break those segments from six to eight to 600 to 800. We call them micro segments. So, so as you said, like there’s, I don’t think there’s one size fit all. I think it just, it’s a journey depends on, depending on where, where the brand is in the maturity curve of their segmentation.
[00:34:15] Alok: What I would say is if you are in two minds, um, of segmentation, I would say absolutely do it or actually test into it because you know if done right or if done remote, if done a little bit right, it could still help you get more out of your file. Because as we all, we are all consumers or customers ourselves, we don’t like brands, you know, that are, that their messaging is not relevant, right?
[00:34:42] Alok: So. One segment to like four segments. You are, you are hopefully closer to, you know, messaging being a little bit more relevant to those segments versus it being, you know, not relevant from majority of your files. So that’s, that’s [00:35:00] what I would share. And then, and then the results. You know, you definitely see higher engagement once you go from batches lost segments, granted that your messaging is meaningful among those segments and not just same messaging among those segments.
[00:35:14] Chintan: So definitely yeah. The context of uh the point. Segment is a must have yet you should not ignore, right? You should at least do segmentation for your brand. and then the other area is once you’re done with segmentation, make sure that your different messaging relevant to that segment rather than just having a common message for all segment and doing, because there is no purpose or benefit of doing that.
[00:35:39] Chintan: So we at mals, are also, helping. Clients where if they are needing a segmentation, definitely the active, subscribers or active customers, right? Inactive customers are basic segmentation. But then the RFM model, which you mentioned about that, VE frequency and monitoring, right? That three [00:36:00] aspect is definitely a key area for e-commerce brands, to segment in the right way.
[00:36:04] Chintan: And, instead of having a different, um, messaging on, on different channels or let’s say one channel. we normally recommend them to have a dynamic content block so you have a single campaign. But then that content block changes the content based on the segment. Exactly. So you can connect with the brand, you can connect with the customer, give that feeling of personalized level, say a good insight, a look moving forward.
[00:36:29] Chintan: we’re also love to get insights on the. The performance metrics, because I know that I, I don’t have a CRM loyalty program. I’ll implement it. I don’t have segmentation. I’ll, I’ll try to build a segmentation today with your SUGGESTIONAL insights. Now then after doing all these things that the key areas, leveraging the performance insights and also getting the customer insights right, our performance metrics, so with your background in marketing analytics.
[00:36:53] Chintan: Particularly at Driven Brands, we would love to know what are some practical techniques or tips or you would [00:37:00] love to give in terms of CRM performance, right? So as we discussed about segmentation in past right few minutes back, would love to, what is the performance metrics the brand normally should focus on?
[00:37:11] Chintan: So it could be, let’s say open rate, it should be click rate, right? It could be anything, right? But what are your, metrics which you feel like should be obviously. Seen, every now and then to track overall success?
[00:37:26] Alok: Yeah, I mean, I, I, I think I, we, we touched on this a little bit earlier as well, because I love discussion a lot because, you know, if you have the right KPI, the right metrics, that generally is an indication that you have the right strategy and.
[00:37:38] Alok: Obviously the right strategy is critical for driving business sense, right? I mean, the, the metrics and the KPIs, the way I, I think about this, they’re, they’re all not created equal, right? It’s not like, you know, you do these three and they all have equal rating, right? They have some, right, and maybe, and, and maybe some is higher, one is higher rated versus other one is more, you know, brands can obsess, as you mentioned, like open [00:38:00] rates and clicks.
[00:38:00] Alok: I consider them as metrics, you know, especially in the, in the, in the world today. You know, because an Apple add PP, you don’t even know you’re in a lot of cases. I. Platforms have come around in a little bit. but in a lot of cases people don’t even know their true open rates, um, and click rates because they’re chat, chat, their ai, um, and, and, and, clicking the, the, the links in the email to make sure that they are, now they’re protecting, right?
[00:38:28] Alok: So, so open rates is gone because of Apple, right? The, the clicker is gone because the, the AI is clicking the, the links in the email to check for malware. Then what do we do? Right? Um, so. I think, I think I focus more on the revenue driving metrics as I talked about earlier, right? It could be for an e-commerce, where it could be what kind of sessions I’m driving to the website, what kind of conversion I have, what kind of drop off rate I have, what kind of balance rate, how many, how much time [00:39:00] I spent.
[00:39:01] Alok: On the, on the website, you know, what’s my conversion, what’s my ticket value? Um, so those were the, those were the key metrics. The ultimate metric that I love most is the customer lifetime value. Um, a, a client I’ve worked with in the specialty retail space, um, focus on the customer lifetime value rather than one off purchase, because even though you are some specific actions that the customer is taking.
[00:39:26] Alok: May not result in an image purchase, but if that helps in increasing the customer lifetime value, that’s a good outcome. Right. An an example could be, you know, um, if an in-store, if, if they’re in-store segment, right? And then you give, you give, you know, half of the file an offer for in-store purchase and half of the file gave them offer for all in purchase, right?
[00:39:51] Alok: You could assume, right? Like if somebody purchase, you know, if, if, if, if one person converted from both segments that it’s okay because [00:40:00] they both converted, you know, they both spend a equal amount of money. But I think that the action or the outcome in this case, if somebody was in store, now they have become multichannel consumer or customer.
[00:40:13] Alok: I think has a much higher impact on the lifetime value. So I think marketers do tend to get, you know, tangled into looking at the one-off purchase and looking at the one-off conversion, which I’m not discounted. That’s critical. But I think looking at the customer lifetime value and how you are increasing customer lifetime value over time, I think gets you hard of this day-to-day grind of checking and making sure that the outcome is resolving in a purchase.
[00:40:44] Alok: But maybe the customer could take actions that are additive to increase their life and value, but may not resolve. And, purchases right then and there. During, during that campaign. I mean, the, the best year metrics are, are invest numbers. They, they tell [00:41:00] a story about, about customer, customer behavior.
[00:41:02] Chintan: Definitely. Yeah. It’s, it’s not always about open red and click create. It’s about metrics, which gives you indication that. The customer is moving towards a purchase or the revenue because that’s the goal. Exactly. Running the CM now. Exactly. It not
[00:41:16] Alok: happen in that case, but it may happen later, but if there are indicators that they took the right action, then that that’s a.
[00:41:23] Chintan: Yep. So it’s, it’s about forgetting the open and clicks, but at least if they’re visiting your website, the traffic on website, from email as a channel, that should be your indication that, that your marketing or or messaging is working in the right direction, um, moving forward as, as someone with a finger on.
[00:41:41] Chintan: On, on the pulse of CRM, right? ’cause you, you have a vast experience into CRM, and marketing analytics. What trends do you see, shaping, the CRM landscape in, 2025 right, this current year? And, how should companies prepare to stay ahead?
[00:41:58] Alok: I would be, I [00:42:00] think, totally out track if I don’t mention AI in this as an right.
[00:42:04] Alok: I mean, CRM is evolving fast, like. AI driven chat bots, first party data strategies and deeper personalizations are the future. You know, one big trend, um, I would say is, you know, machine learning, right? That, you know, we talk about this a little bit and people kind of use it, they get it, but, but I think, or, or, or, or I think AI driven personalization, right?
[00:42:29] Alok: It’s, it’s just not reacting to the customer behavior, but the, the benefit of ai, as we talked about earlier. Brands are able to predict, you know, what’s next. You know, it’s like knowing a customer is due for, a tuneup before they actually do, right? Like knowing that the customer’s gonna show up on this day before customer even knows that they’re gonna show up on this day, right?
[00:42:56] Alok: The brands of average AI in [00:43:00] 2025 and beyond. We’ll, we’ll win. You know? Um, so I would say, um, as we talked about earlier, like not to get yourself, be scared of ai, but embrace it and leverage it in a way, um, to help you design those experiences because then the technology affords you. To design those experiences that has never been done before.
[00:43:26] Alok: So, I would say one big trend is obviously how do we, how do we leverage ai? The other thing I would say is that, you know, it’s a fine balance, right? Like, how. The AI is obviously gonna, is here to stay in. It’s here to, you know, help us be better on how we design those experiences. But the human touch is even more critical because you can’t have, you know, computers and machines do these things themselves, right?
[00:43:52] Alok: Like having a human. I and, and, but I think the role of the human has changed. In this case, in the past, human was more [00:44:00] on the execution side, but I think the one big trend is where AI is doing a lot of automation and then the execution task for you. But having a human or a marketer that can focus on the true strategy and the true experience design.
[00:44:14] Alok: For, for the customer, right? So I think those are the big trends that I would kind of watch out for and try that and beyond.
[00:44:22] Chintan: Definitely. So ai, AI is definitely the key. And, you mentioned about machine learning at lms. yeah. That leveraging, that could be one of the key areas which might excel in this.
[00:44:33] Chintan: now this we, we talked about. The landscape, which is getting changed in the CRM, but there are also brands that who are just starting out to build out their CRM cap capabilities. Right. What foundational steps would you recommend to avoid common implementation pitfalls? for a brand who is just, planning or starting to build out their CRM capabilities,
[00:44:54] Alok: I, I think having the wide data infrastructure is key, right?
[00:44:58] Alok: Um, [00:45:00] it could feel daunting at times, but having. Investing a little bit early on in having the right data infrastructure helps you a lot in the long term. So anybody that’s starting, I would say, I would recommend them spending a little bit extra time on making sure you have the right data infrastructure, you have part of all the data you’re gonna need for, you know, or majority of the data you’re gonna need for, you know, running your campaigns.
[00:45:29] Alok: Running your CRM um, is, is, is. Kind of critical because it’s OI to a lot of headaches in the, in the long run. The other component is, I mean, having the right partners as well is also critical. Um, a partner that understands your business, that has invested with you in a strategic way. Um, we have worked with, you know, in the past and I would say very proudly that you guys gonna bring that to the table.
[00:45:58] Alok: Is if somebody’s starting up, [00:46:00] having the right partners is, is critical to make sure that they get your vision right. So having the right infrastructure, having the right partners would be the good first steps from the, from the foundation perspective. And then I think the third thing I would say is have, you know, buying from a leadership, start testing, um, start small as you go into it.
[00:46:21] Alok: Um, and then completely rereading, right? It’s like a. I call CRM as a, you know, building a recipe, right? You gotta keep tasting it and keep it trading on it before you get the, the best, you know, tasted, you know, product or, or out there, right? So, somebody that’s starting, don’t be afraid of testing. Um, test small.
[00:46:44] Alok: Um, and learn from it, and then completely evolve. CM should never be insurance must not be a set it and forget it. Strategy. CM must always be evolving over time because, customer’s needs customer [00:47:00] landscape. Customer mindset changes over time. Customer expectations changes over time. Like, for example, going back like 10, 15 years ago, people expected, you know, that the shipping will take, you know, two to five days.
[00:47:12] Alok: With the Amazon, right? People get their products hours now. Right. And that’s the mindset that the customer has. That’s expectation that they have on all brands, right? So as you are starting with that now, I don’t know what it’s gonna be like three years from now, or five years from now, but continue to evolve your program, completely.
[00:47:30] Alok: Continue to evolve your strategy. Don’t ever. You know, put it in a set of the forget it module. Um, so that, those would be like something of my wisdom on the, on somebody who’s just starting their CRM program.
[00:47:44] Chintan: Got it. So yeah, it’s more about having a right infrastructure, right partner. And, and constant iteration, right?
[00:47:51] Chintan: Which is the key, which the brand should definitely focus on, to make sure that they avoid those common pitfalls. So, great, great [00:48:00] insight. and, and thanks for sparing time. It was really great having you here and then those suggestions and insights, which you shared. Based on your journey so far in the CRM, I hope, many of the marketers will be able to leverage it and then would be cautious whenever they’re implementing any CRM or loyalty program for the brands.
[00:48:19] Alok: Yeah, no, thanks for, thanks for inviting me, chitan. And, as I said, happy to be here. Hopefully some of those insights will be helpful for the marketers, um, across, in this space. And, good to be, good to be,
[00:48:33] Alok: talking to you today. Thank you. Thank you. Alok.